What happened when you questioned the science minister
9 November 2006
Many thanks to all of you who took part in our webchat with science minister Lord Sainsbury.
Below you'll find a full list of the questions and answers.
Our next webchat with be with James Hall, head of the ID card scheme, on Tuesday 14 November at 1600 GMT.
Transcript of the Lord Sainsbury webchat
Lord Sainsbury says: Hi, I'm David Sainsbury and I'm the Minister of Science and Innovation. I have been in this job 8 years and I've enjoyed this job enormously and am happy to answer any questions you have.
Dr Chloe Marshall: As a scientist, I am very pleased that you think science has an increasingly important role to play in the UK economy. However, there are two major factors which your and future governments must consider before that aim can be realised. First, the working conditions and job prospects for UK scientists must be improved out of all recognition.
Secondly, good scientists can only come from a pool of young adults who received a sound scientific education at school. And yet all the indicators are that science education is not improving.
Good education and better pay/job stability for scientists are the two most important ways that the UK government can ensure a good science base in this country.
Lord Sainsbury replies: I agree with you that the terms and conditions under which Scientists work and a good pool of young scientists are the two key factors for the future of British science. I think on both issues we have made some real progress in recent years but there is still much more to be done. In particular we need to do much more to make certain that the teachers in our schools have the right qualifications for teaching their subjects. There is in particular a real shortage of people to teach physics and this is reflected in the number of young people doing A level physics. We've taken an action here but I think the tide is only just beginning to turn.
Tony J: I am amused by the Government's suddent U-turn on investing in science whene everybody knows they have not invested properly over the years. Why would a young person get into science now before the powers that be lose interest again?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I don't agree at all with your assumpation that there has been a U-turn. In fact during the life of the Government the funding of the Research Councils has gone up from £1.3 billion in 1997/98 to about £3.4 billion today which is a huge increase. We've also seen the setting up of the Technology Strategy Board which is an important investor of user driver research. There is still more we can do but the record of this Government on investing in science I don't think can be faulted.
A B Yates: The Government had a "ten year plan" for science and innovation - what happened to it and did we ever meet the targets?
Lord Sainsbury replies: You will be glad to hear that we still have the ten year plan which we are steadily implementing and we have just brought out a "Next Steps" document which reviews the progress we have made and also suggests some further work that we need to do. I know these documents are not the most exciting documents to read but you should get hold of a copy of it so that you can see how seriously we take the implementation of it. You can read about the ten year plan here:
ww.dti.gov.uk/science/science-funding/framework/next_steps/page28988.html
Tara Shears: I would like to ask Lord Sainsbury a question that follows from the Prime Minister's call to young people to find out more about science. One very inspirational way to achieve this is to for scientists to talk about what they do and why they do it. Not only does this bring abstract ideas to life but it makes the whole concept of science as a part of life quite tangible.
Unfortunately, this very valuable type of public outreach is often not recognised or valued. Researchers rarely take part because it is perceived as a "spare time" (and time intensive) activity for which there is no reward other than the personal warm fuzzy kind. What does Lord Sainsbury think of requiring, for example, university research departments to achieve excellence in public communication as well as research and teaching? (For example, in the successor to the RAE.) Having this kind of recognition and motivation would ensure that far more scientists engage their public and keep them informed. What does the Science Minister think?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I totally agree about the importance of young people being inspired to take up science by having contact with scientists who are actually working in the laboratory. But I think it would be a big mistake to try to build this into any kind of assessment exercise. Above all this kind inspirational work has to be something that people really want to do do and of course some people can't do it at all. And I'm frankly very much against loading anything more on to the Research Assessment Exercise or its successor which is already quite complicated enough.
Wendy Fowler: What incentives are there for scientists to teach our schoolchildren ?
I am a mature student returned to University this year to study Biology, I would love to teach this wonderful subject to youngsters however I am already worried about the level of debt i will incur if I do a 3 year degree and then a PGCE?
Lord Sainsbury replies: There are now some considerable incentives for people to come and teach science to our schoolchildren and these days the salaries are much better than they used to be so I would very much advise you to and find out the different routes you can take to teaching science in schools and the various incentives and rewards that are now provided. I think you will find you can do so without incurring a large amount of debt.
Karen Proctor: Where do you stand on the testing of drugs on animals, in what circumatances can it be justified?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I believe it would be completely irresponsible to allow drugs to be used on people before they have been tested on animals. The testing of drugs on animals can't give all the answers as to whether a drug is safe but it can rule out cases where there are serious side effects. Testing of drugs on animals I think can be justified on a basis of the benefits which will occur in terms of the treatment of seriously ill individials against the suffering that may be caused to animals. What is essential is that such testing is very carefully controlled as it is in this country and no testing can take place unless it can be shown to the Inspectors that the benefits really do outweigh the likely suffering to the animals.
Alison Nuttall: They say stem cells could cure blindness, diabetes and Parkinson's, cancer, is it the future of medical science and should we be making sure that Britain leads the field in resarch?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I believe that stem cells could provide cures in a whole range of illnesses and is one of the key parts to the future of medical science which is regenerative medicine. In the past we've had treatment by drugs and by surgery and now we have the potential for a whole new class which is regenerative medicine. Britain has a lot of skills in this area and we should be seeking to be a world leader.
Grant Denkinson: Good evening. I'm Grant Denkinson - I work in Physics at Leicester University. A few fundamental science departments have closed recently around the country or are under threat such as Physics at Reading. I'd like to know how you are indending to support science depts in higher education?
Lord Sainsbury replies: You are quite right there have been quite a large number of closures of science departments around the country. There are two issues here. One is the number of students coming through and the other is whether we provide enough funding for the teaching of expensive science subjects. In a number of areas we are already beginning to see an increase in the number of young people taking particular science subjects in the universities, for example the number of people taking chemistry in the universities is now going up again. As you will also have seen, the Higher Education Funding Council for England is also taking action to put an extra £75 million into key science departments related to the number of students they are teaching, so that they can be financially viable while they go through the procedure of recalculating the cost of teaching.
Terry Joslin: Will the south Oxfordshire science cluster ( centred around the Harwell campus) ever get into the top five in the world ?
Lord Sainsbury replies: As you may know we are going to turn the Harwell campus in Oxfordshire into a major innovation campus for some of our big science projects and I believe that this could indeed turn it into one of the top five in the world. But they will have to work hard to stay ahead of Daresbury which is also determined to be one of the best in the world.
Dr Sarah Westcott: I think you should be aware that a great number of scientists, myself included, are deciding to leave the profession they have studied most of their lives to join.
This is down to the problems with job security mainly but also due to a feeling of being undervalued. How can you say science is important to the government, and then close down the leading MRC institute NIMR?
Lord Sainsbury replies: We are not of course going to close the National Institute for Medical Research (NIMR) which is one of the great medical research institutes in the world. What we are planning to do is to move it into London because all they advice we have had both in this country and from international experts is that this kind of research should today be located both near a major university and alongside hospital facilties if we want to get a high level of translational research. The record of NIMR is outstanding but looking to the future we need to make certain that it is in the best possible position to achieve the same or even better record in the future.
Ian Hooper: Why is mor emoney not spent on discovering cures for cancer? This would SAVE!! the Government money in the long run because they wouldn't have to spend money treating people on the NHS, drugs etc?
Lord Sainsbury replies: Unfortunately the way that research and drug discovery works is not simply a case of putting the maximum resources into the most dangerous or debilitating illnesses. The best way to put money into science is to find the areas where scientific advances are taking place and then put the efforts of the pharmaceutical companies into finding new drugs to cure the symptoms that have been established. If it was a simple question of determining that cancer was the main target then putting vast sums of money behind research as President Nixon did when he had the Decade of Cancer in the USA, then we would do so. Fortunately developments in science mean that we are now much closer to finding cures for cancer but at the end of the day progress will depend on a greater understanding of the underlying science. We are now of course doing a huge amount of research on cancer and making real progress through our Research Councils.
Alok Jha, science correspondent, The Guardian: : Given last year's impartial Royal Astronomical Society report on the scientific case for human spaceflight, and its recommendation that the UK should get involved asap, why are we not making moves to send a Briton into space?
Lord Sainsbury replies: We have in this country three objectives for our space policy. These are doing world class space exploration, commercial developments in space such as telecommunications and earth observation, and in none of these cases is it judged by most scientists that human space flight is cost effective at this time. Human space flight is unbelievably expensive and today the best way to do space exploration is through robotics. Over time of course this may change but at the present time the case for human space flight in terms of our three objectives is minimal.
Syed Anwar Hussain Amer ACMI: 9 November 2006 5.28 PM
Dear Science Minister
I am 61(+) but I am keen to learn Science in whatever form I can make it, I did make good use through Learndirect courses doing their about twenty five (25+) courses, without being personal, I want you to respond whether ageism will come in the way in my ardent desire to learn physics/chemistry/science courses and if not, from which direction I should commence, please respond, will you?
Regards and thanks for your time.
Yours truly
Syed Anwar Hussain Amer ACMI
ACMI stands for Associate Member Chartered Management Institute and are my designatory letters
Lord Sainsbury replies: As a 66-year-old Science Minister I think you probably need to mature a bit before you take on these new duties, but I urge you to continue your ambition since there is a lot of fun and enjoyment and intellectual stimulus to be had as one moves into one's sixties.
Dr McGovern: Where do you stand on the link between MMR and autism?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I am absolutely clear from all the scientific evidence that there is no link between MMR and autism, and I think there are very few scientists today who would suggest there is any link at all.
Dr Edward McGovern: Essentially the issue with science is not a lack of ideas, direction, or enthusiasm from the researchers at the conceptual level, but funding. The life of a scientist is spent applying for research grants that are simply put not being funded; this is not an efficient use of a person's skill and time.
And, in many cases, the lack of funding is not due to quality of the proposal, I know a number of more senior colleagues who also sit on the funding committees and they assure me that science that would have been funding five or ten years ago is now being put aside due to the lack of finances available to the funding body.
It is therefore the case that the research and science is being quelled at the first hurdle. Resulting in an excess of highly trained people who are not able to work at their full potential.
Lord Sainsbury replies: We have of course in recent years more than doubled the science budget from £1.3 billion to £3.4 billion so there is a lot more money for research, but we do believe in this country that the best way to keep a high level of research excellence is to have a competitive grant process and peer review. This means that people do have to compete for grants but all the evidence shows that this a more effective system than one where large grants are made to institutes and the funds are then distributed to individual researchers. Our systems means that young researchers can become principal investigators at an early age and again all the evidence shows is a huge advantage. I appreciate that this often means that people have to spend a lot of time filling in grant appilcations and can often be disappointed, but overall the system certainly produces better results than systems where the funds are distributed by the heads of research institutes.
Trey Timms: Who does the minister regard as Britain's greatest-ever scientists, going back over the centuries?
Lord Sainsbury replies: My top list would always start with Darwin and then after that I would put Faraday and Newton but I think putting oneself in a position of judging whether Darwin or Newton was the greater scientist is rather presumptuous.
Sean Evers: Where's the next Crick coming from, the next Faraday? Why don't we have science "Oscars" where we celebrate the best and make them into stars?!
Lord Sainsbury replies: I suspect there are lots of Cricks and Faradays working away in our universities today. We do of course have science Oscars they are called Nobel prizes and they are of course highly prized throughout the world and we have the most per capita in the world.
Alan Hills: I, any many others in my position are forced to work in an expensive area of the country with regard to house prices. Assistance with purchasing a house (such as the key worker scheme for other valued professions in a similar position) would be a definate factor in retaining people in the field. Encouraging more youngsters to take up an interest in science is a noble effort, an one I am glad to see you champion. I would hate to see that effort wasted if none of the youngsters with a passion for science end up working in the scientific field.
Lord Sainsbury replies: I think there is a danger in trying to argue for everyone being key workers. I would prefer to argue all the time for just paying scientists higher salaries.
Claire Nixson: What is being done to ensure creationism is not taught in science classes in schools?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I don't have any problem with people teaching creationism as long as no-one pretends that it is anything to do with science, nor is it part of any science curriculum. If it is taught on such a basis it should quite simply be stopped.
Benjamin: Does the Minister have a view on the use of DNA technology to capture criminals in so-called "cold cases"? What about the human rights/liberty issues?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I have no problem about the use of DNA technology to capture criminals in any cases. I have never believed that inefficiency or incompetence is a good defence of human rights and liberty. It is also of course the case that its been possible to declare certain people innocent with DNA technology.
bharti: Bharti Parmar
i have lots of projects in mind that would motivate young adults into scientific , environment and would like to know who to approach with regards to this?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I am delighted that you have got lots of ideas about how we can motivate young adults to take an interest in science and the environment. You should make contact with SETNET who run the science and engineering ambassadors scheme for schools and I know they would be interested in hearing of new ways of enthusing young people:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/science/science-and-society/science-workforce/women-in-set/page30601.html
Anish Acharya: Why does the government not spend more on research into new energy sources? I feel that we are over reliant on other countries to find new sources, when we have some of the finest scientists in Britain itself.
Lord Sainsbury replies: I think you are essentially right that in the past we have relied too much on scientists in other countries to come up with new ideas about energy sources. But as you will see, in recent years we have greatly increased the amount of research in the area of renewables and of course we are beginning to step up again work on nuclear energy. The Research Councils are also greatly stepping up their activity on energy.
Dan Channer: Lord Sainsbury, do you believe that the core to encouraging youngsters would be to reflect the possibilities of science in their own school coursework? Having attained my GCSE's in science 3 years back, I had always noticed the inflexible workings of the coursework. By allowing students to conduct their own methodologies and actual experiments, I think this would help pave-the-way to youth-engagement in sciences by showing science is for the individual, and not just to follow line-by-line and step-by-step instructions; this is where I believe students feel disinterested as they're not actually involved.
Thank you for your time, Minister.
Lord Sainsbury replies: I totally agree that we need to allow students to experience the excitement of scientific discovery by doing their own experiments. I think over recent years demonstrations and experiments have got crowded out from the classroom and we need to have a national effort to make certain that room is allowed for them in the curriculum. Teachers need to regain the confidence to carry out the experiments and demonstration which is what encourages most young people to go into science.
Lizzie Barrett: Apart from Tony Blair's speech, what are the Government's plans to inspire young people about science and reignite their passion for discovery?
Lord Sainsbury replies: In recent years we have set up the Science and Engineering Ambassadors Scheme which has already 13,000 young scientists and engineers going into schools to tell students what its like to have scientific careers. We've also announced that we are going to set up 250 Engineering and Science clubs around the country. But I believe that the most important way of inspiring young people to develop a passion for science is through inspired teaching and we still have a lot to do to make certain that our teachers of science have the right qualifications.
Blake: Will we ever see a cloned human?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I hope not.
Laura McIntosh: How important are Healthcare Scientists in the NHS today?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I have always believed that clinical research in the National Health Service has been undervalued and we are currently making strenuous efforts to improve both the training and the career prospects of clinical scientists . This we believe is important if we are to translate our world class science into the best medical practice in our hospitals.
Kurt Haselwimmer: Having launched the UK's small business research initiative (SBRI) programme 5 years ago does Lord Sainsbury think that more needs to be done to make this UK programme as effective as the US scheme upon which it is based ?
Lord Sainsbury replies: Yes. I don't think SBRI has been as successful as I had hoped and this is something we are going to look again to see if we can make it as effective as the similar programme in the US on which it was based.
Dr Tony Merry: I do hope that now the tide has turned, and the true value of science is being recognised. I have had a career in academia, the NHS, and in a Biotech SME and in each sphere the problems with funding and support for research and development were considerable. Now I am more concerned with promoting the public understanding of science and in lobbying for support for research I do hope that the climate is changing and that the further support mentioned in your speech is really forthcoming.
Lord Sainsbury replies: I believe the tide has turned both in terms of Government funding of research which has increased enormously in recent years and in terms of venture capital funding where this is great interest now in high-tech spin-off companies from our universities. But we believe there is still more to be done. We are looking at ways we can encourage a greater increase in industrial funding as well as make certain that venture capitalists look at as wide a range of high-tech companies as possible.
Colin Cowes: You must be happy that science is at the top of the agenda right now, but how long before it slips off our radars once more?
Lord Sainsbury replies: There is a real commitment in the present Government both from the Prime MInister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to support science in the future and therefore I can't see science slipping off the agenda unless people are foolish enough to elect a different government when no doubt we will have vacuous statements of support but no extra money.
Loraine Gilroy: Hello minister, what has been your greatest achivement as science minister, do you hope to serve elsewhere in Government?
Lord Sainsbury replies: I've been enormously pleased to have been Minister of Science and Innovation at a time when we have vastly increased the amount of money going into scientific research but I'm proudest of the fact that this Government has introduced incentives for knowledge transfer from our universities and that this has led to a major cultural change. We can now point to the fact that our universities are, on all measures of innovation whether it is patents, spin-off companies or licences, producing a level of performance as good as in America. This is a major change from our past history which has been to be good at discovery but not good at turning this into new products and services. And I think today as a result people are beginning to realise the huge contribution that science can make both to wealth creation and the qualilty of our lives.
Lord Sainsbury says: Many thanks for all your questions which were extremely interesting and stimulating and a lot more fun than answering questions in the House of Lords.
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