PM's climate change interview with Sky
9 January 2007
Tony Blair says we can all help combat climate change by making small changes to our lifestyles - including at Number 10.
In an interview with Sky News, as part of their Green Britain week, the PM spoke about the challenges everyone faces from environmental change.
Parts of this transcript may have been edited
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Question:
First of all Prime Minister, thanks very much for letting us into your kitchen to talk about this issue on a personal level as well as a political one. Now you've made very clear political statements about the pressing issue you see around global warming. How do you take it personally? What observations have you made in your own life?
Tony Blair:
That I think you can make a difference as an individual, although in the end, what matters is to get an international agreement on it. But I think people like to feel because they feel passionately about the issue, they know the damage that's being done to the planet - that they can make a contribution. And so even when we went through Downing Street and looked at what we could do, we realised for example, that you could get all your electricity off renewable energy sources, which we now do. Or you can turn the thermostat down or energy efficient light bulbs are actually better and better now and they in fact - they're cost effective over time as well. So there are lots of things you can do personally but then what's important also is making sure that government policy is helping you do that.
Question:
It actually costs quite a lot of money to be green and I wondered whether the government had got any financial incentives in place to help householders be more energy efficient?
Tony Blair:
We fund something called the Carbon Trust and the body that actually helps advise people on their domestic circumstances in terms of energy efficiency and energy saving and you can get advice as to how you do this in the most cost effective way and basically, most of what you will do in green terms, has a pay back. So for example, if you use the energy efficient light bulbs, you pay more for them, but they give you a lot more in terms of electricity - and pay back over the years. And the other thing that's interesting is that we are going to establish something which allows people to measure their carbon footprint and you will actually be able to see how much energy you're using - what you're emitting and how you can reduce it. So I think we will be able to deal with that in time - we need to make sure that people want to help but they find it very difficult to know where to start.
Question:
And they'd like some incentives too occasionally too.
Tony Blair:
Absolutely, but in a sense, people get the incentives, for example in terms of your energy efficiency. I mean all new buildings now have got to be 40 per cent more energy efficient - there's all that type of stuff that we're doing. But we're also putting a massive amount into renewable technologies that help us to reduce their costs.
Question:
Why aren't all recycle bins being emptied more frequently?
Tony Blair:
We don't do that from central government, we let the local authorities do it but we do about 3 times more recycling than we used to 10 years ago. We don't do enough. But the good local authorities are making it a part of their pitch to local people now and we put several hundred million pounds into helping fund it. So in the end, we don't decide it - it's got to be the local authority that decides it. But to be fair - I think there are a lot of Local Authorities of whatever political complexion are now making that a big part of what they do - and I think again - you know - I think it's 90 per cent do kerb side collection now which obviously helps for recycling - but we should do more on that and I think in time, in a way, the pressure from local people to say to their local authority - 'why aren't you letting us do more?' you know - that would be good.
Question:
Why isn't government doing more to enable more schools to have solar panels, so they can have solar-powered energy?
Tony Blair:
Now, we actually do do something on this, which is that we give incentives for schools to be far more energy efficient and use renewable technologies. We don't discriminate however, between solar, or you could have a wind turbine, but we actually provide incentives now for schools and some of the new schools because there's a huge new schools building programme that's going on. We're building the environmental thing into those school refurbishments and new school buildings. I visited one in Liverpool the other day that uses solar panelling and is dramatically reducing their carbon footprint and they actually have, up in the school, there is a board which shows how much they're using and how much, you know, they can reduce it by.
You know, again, I think there's more we can do here, but we are, through this 'building schools for the future' programme, which is rebuilding or refurbishing all the schools in the country over the next 10 or 15 years, you know, we can build in a lot of this. As I say, we don't say - you've got to use solar panelling rather than a different way of doing it, but we are saying, you know, we're incentivising and helping fund more energy efficient and environmentally beneficial ways of heating.
Question:
Can I just ask you a couple of bits about your own life really. I mean it must be difficult - you've got a long check list of things you've got to worry about - but I mean - do you recycle your rubbish - have you thought of perhaps not flying to Barbados for a holiday and not using all those air miles?
Tony Blair:
I think to be honest about that, I think you divide it into two categories. Recycling - we do all recycling in Downing Street now which we've changed over the last few years to do. All ministerial travel is carbon neutral. I mean I would frankly, be reluctant to give up my holidays abroad.
Question:
Well let's be realistic - you know that people will leap on things like that and say well actually it would be a good message - a holiday closer to home?
Tony Blair:
Yes - but I personally think these things are a bit impractical actually to expect people to do that. I think that what we need to do is to look at how you make, you know, air travel more energy efficient, how you develop the new fuels that will allow us to burn less energy and emit less. How, you know - for example - in the new frames for the aircraft, they are far more energy efficient. I mean I know everyone always - people probably think the Prime Minister shouldn't go on holiday at all, but I think if what we do in this area is set people unrealistic targets, you know if we say to people we're going to cancel all the cheap air travel... You know, I'm still waiting for the first politician who's actually running for office who's going to come out and say it - and they're not. But that's not to say that and you can get yourself into a situation. It's like telling people you shouldn't drive anywhere.
Question:
Ok - let's talk about driving then. Your Mayor of London called people who drive 4x4s, idiots. What would you call them?
Tony Blair:
Well Ken has his own way of expressing himself, as you know. Look, in the end, this is where you can incentivise behaviour, they get taxed more.
Question:
To people who can afford vehicles like that though - does that tax really pinch - I mean it's a couple of hundred quid yeah - but are people who drive 4x4s going to be bothered about things like that do you think?
Tony Blair:
Well I think when you look at the price of fuel and all the rest of it, these things do have an impact, but look, we have done more than any other government before us to put this green agenda right at the centre of government policy. But - and we've done that internationally - because we've established the first dialogue that I think is now bringing all the main players into the market and remember, it's very important - Britain is two per cent of the world's emissions. If we shut down all of Britain's emissions tomorrow - the growth in China would make up the difference within two years. So we've got to be realistic about how much obligation we've got to put on ourselves. The danger, for example, if you say to people 'Right, in Britain, you know, you're not going to have any more cheap air travel' everybody else is going to be having it, so you've got to do this together and you've got to do it in a way that doesn't end up actually putting people off the green agenda by saying you must not have a good time anymore and can't consume. The truth is all the evidence is that if you use the science and technology constructively, your economy can grow, people can have a good time but do so more responsibly.
Question:
But it came out very clearly from the Stern Review and actually in your response to it too that the response to it has to be bold, it requires firm leadership. That inevitably involves, sooner or later, realistically, a bit of pain doesn't it. I mean it involves people really taking that hard long look at their lives and perhaps being pushed into it by government and saying that things have got to change if we are going to take this so seriously.
Tony Blair:
Yeah but there's pain and pain. You see I think you can say to people that means use energy efficient light bulbs, you know, use ways of making sure you're recycling, changing your behaviour in that sense. I think if you say to people 'You're not to travel abroad, you're not to use your car'. I think people will just go 'Oh hang on a minute, I think this is all too much' and because I don't think that's ever gonna happen, I think it's more constructive to look at the ways you can actually make a difference and there are ways you can make a difference. Now, there are lots of hard decisions, I mean nuclear power is a hard decision. If we end up closing all Britain's nuclear power stations and not replacing them, we're going to have to find another 25 per cent of our electricity from somewhere. So it's not that there aren't difficult decisions, but I think it's a kind of false argument to say to people, you know, unless you're prepared to put on a hair shirt you can't really deal with this issue. It's not true - you can deal with it through developing the science and technology. That's what you've got to do and through changes in behaviour that are responsible and make a difference - are effective but aren't frankly, beyond what anyone's gonna do.
Question:
I mean there were big promises on issues like recycling, on issues like getting people to get out of their cars more often that you promised when you came into office and there are areas that people can point to and say 'Look, you know, we simply haven't got there in any form, I mean recycling, we've got one of the worst records in Europe, I mean, why is it that somewhere like Germany sort of 'gets it' and can recycle more than 50 per cent in some of the areas, while we're struggling at the area around 7% for example? Why is it that there are still more car journeys than there were ten years ago.
Tony Blair:
You know, without beating ourselves up too much, there's only one country, two maybe, that are going to meet their Kyoto targets in Europe and Britain is one of them. Germany has got other issues to do with CO2 emissions and they've got very heavy and often old coal-fired power stations. Now, I'm not saying that in disrespect to Germany, but if you look across the piece I think Britain can be very proud of what it's doing. But yeah, you know, you're right, of course, you've gotta go further and recycling is one area, but you know, I don't think we should take away from the fact that if you look at the incentives we're giving, the investment we're making in renewable technology, you know. You mentioned Ken Livingston - I think we're the only really big city in the world to introduce congestion charging so it's not as if nothing's happening but you know - you've got to do more.
Question:
Were the measures in the Pre Budget report bold enough do you think - simply doubling air passenger tax, there's a fuel increase of course, a fuel price increase but are these bold moves do you think in the face of the warnings that we've had?
Tony Blair:
Well I think when you put them alongside the stuff we're doing in the climate change review and the incentives we're giving to individuals to improve their behaviour, the carbon footprint notion - the idea of a carbon budget which we're now taking forward. We've just established this forum with business where businesses are coming together and saying we're going to become carbon neutral - like Sky - you know all of that is really important too and we're making probably one of the largest investments in renewable technology in the world. Now, I think, in the end, my view of this is - and I've looked at this and studied it very carefully - the key is in science and technology helping people change behaviour but if you end up saying - I mean - you know if Gordon were to go and sort of quadruple fuel duty I mean - yeah it would make a difference...
Question:
Well we know what happens when that happens - we've seen it before I suppose...
Tony Blair:
Exactly. And what amuses me is that some of the same people who are criticising him for not being green enough in his pre-budget report were the people who a few years ago were the same people out there saying the fuel protests were a very good thing. So, you know - you've just got to strike a balance, that's all, and round the world this country is seen as a leader in this field.
Question:
Let's talk a bit about leadership. Would you offer David Cameron a note of praise for placing this more squarely on the kitchen table as a political subject?
Tony Blair:
Yeah I mean I think that i would like to say that we've done a lot on it over the years but I think the fact the Conservative Party is talking about these issues too - yeah I think it's a good thing because it also means that it gives us a greater permission in a way. You know, one of the things I'm saying within government in the last few months is 'Look - we can actually be more radical. I mean the fact is, when we introduced the climate change levy that meant that the heavy industrial users were having to pay a levy that we then used for environmentally beneficial ways and so on - I mean that was a tough thing to do . And at that time the Conservative Party were heavily against it, so...
Question:
But a lot of people see you as playing catch-up in some ways to David Cameron. He's made that such a sort of centre piece of where he wants to put the Conservative Party at the moment and they've looked at Downing St and they've looked at No.11 too and thought well this is a government playing catch up at the moment.
Tony Blair:
Well it depends what your policy is in the end. You know, I mean it's one thing to be talking about it - it's another to say what are the policies. But you know in the end I don't really mind however people want to describe it. I think that the important thing is that there is a big political consensus now and the Stern Report that you mentioned which we set up and which described the long term costs of not tackling climate change had an impact around the world. Everywhere I go in different parts of the world people are talking about it. It's a big talking point in America, where also now as a result of things like the deal we've done with California - I mean Britain and California have linked up - we're linking up with individual American States and that's making a big difference as well. I think it's quite hard actually to say that this country hasn't had a strong leadership position in this area. Most people around the world would say that we have. But I think the truth is - as you rightly imply - people are getting so concerned about this now that you are having at each stage actually to become more radical and bolder rather than less so.
Question:
Just a couple more questions Prime Minister. Really on those issues of leadership and the role you want to play here. There'll be a lot of people who heard your very strong comments following the Stern Review saying it needs bold leadership - it ts the most pressing thing. There'd have been a lot of people sitting listening to that thinking, 'you know, I've been told that the war on terror is the most pressing things in our lives in the 21st century - we've got to battle that. We know that of course Iraq gets mentioned in every conversation with you Prime Minister and then you want people - gosh - to start thinking about global warming too - there's so much fear that one person...
Tony Blair:
It's a tough world out there
Question:
Well it is - but there's a problem with that isn't there in leadership is that you simply overwhelm people with all the problems that seem to be outstanding for populations in society now and they simply switch off.
Tony Blair:
That's the world. Your duty if you're the leader of the country is to say to people 'This is what I think the issues are' and you know, it would be a bit odd if you didn't say global terrorism is a major question today because it is. And it would be a bit odd if you didn't say climate change was. I'm afraid I don't create the issues, I mean I simply have to respond to them and I think that well the interesting thing for a country like Britain - which after all - in the early 21st century is a country of 60 million population - small geographical size - is that whatever the issue, we're at the centre of events and shaping them. Now some people have powerful disagreements with issues and agreement on other issues, but you can't ignore the fact that this country is right at the centre of things, which is, in my view where we should always be.
Question:
You must be thinking about what comes next when you leave office. Leadership in this particular area of global warming - is that something that is a possibility of a job that you might take up next in this field?
Tony Blair:
Well I don't as you know - that's speculating - but mainly because I've got too much to do with this one at the moment. But I'll keep the interest in climate change and global warming because it's going to take decades to solve that and we're close, I think, to getting an International agreement. I think the next few months will be quite important, because I know the Germans now - following what we did in 2005 - want in 2007 to make climate change a major question for their presidency of the G8 countries.
