9 February 2007
Comedian and actor Stephen Fry joins Tony Blair for a chat in our latest podcast. The pair met in the Pillared Room of Number 10 for a wide-ranging conversation about multiculturalism, the use of technology in politics and Britain’s role in the global community.
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Stephen Fry:
Hello and welcome to this podcast. I am Stephen Fry. I am sitting at the moment in the Pillared Room of 10 Downing Street, London, on a sunny winter’s day and I am going to be speaking to the Right Honourable Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, about all kinds of things - history, culture, life at the top.
So Prime Minister I want to get all the questions out of the way that everybody asks when they come here, and that is you stand in the lobby and there is a picture of Robert Walpole, and then you go up the stairs and every succeeding Prime Minister flashes past you as you leap up the landings. Do you feel their shadow over you?
Prime Minister:
Particularly the ones from Disraeli and Gladstone onwards are the ones that you recognise. I mean I confess when I go down the staircase and you see all the pictures and then you get to the drawings of the ones.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, Lord Pelham, and Lord Grenville, and Lord Liverpool and Lord Derby.
Prime Minister:
And those are the ones you find more difficult to identify. But yes it is an enormous thought that you have got all these extraordinary people who came before you. And of course the one picture that is sort of taken out and put just before you get to the staircase is Churchill.
Stephen Fry:
That is the big one for everybody, internationally and nationally, and I suppose the Cabinet room itself which looks, if I may so, a little bit like a Ramada business room where they have the pencils and everything, but that is as it should be.
Prime Minister:
Well I don’t know that it is as it should be, I am afraid, I think that is quite …
Stephen Fry:
Oh dear, well you will have to apologise to Ramada personally, but you know what I mean. After all it is a business conference room, I suppose that is what Cabinet is to some extent.
Prime Minister:
Yes it is and it has got this table that is designed especially so that you can look at the faces of all the people around the table. It is designed in a sort of slightly oval shape.
Stephen Fry:
And that is of course when you walk in there as a tourist, as I have occasionally been lucky enough to do, you know that is where Margaret Thatcher sat when she went round the Cabinet asking whether she should stay, and you know it is where Chamberlain went round when he asked Halifax and all the others whether or not they should proceed with Munich. Some quite big things have happened at Cabinet level. Do you again find it nerve-racking to have so many, because it is a lot of seats. How many is a full Cabinet meeting, do you know?
Prime Minister:
It is about 21, 22 when you add in all the different people. But no the interesting thing about it is obviously it is a room where many historic things have happened. I remember when Sinn Fein first came to see us there, and you know this was just after we began the peace process in Northern Ireland and of course they pointed out that this was the room in which Lloyd George had sat with the Irish politicians of the time and tried to broker the agreement that of course eventually led to the partition of Ireland, and they were sort of musing on the sense of history, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness. And Mo Mowlam, who was with me, said "Yes" she said, "and just behind you is the window where that mortar that you fired into John Major’s Cabinet came in through the window."
Stephen Fry:
Yes, I was going to say someone should have said that. And if there was a thing to be said by someone at that time it would have been Mo Mowlam.
Prime Minister:
Yes it was and everyone took it in reasonably good part.
Stephen Fry:
But that actually brings me to quite an interesting point about being a politician. Sometimes people ask me, for no apparent reason as far as I can tell, whether I have ever thought of going into politics, it is a bit late for me now of course. And I always said no, and the reason I said no was that I like being able to speak my mind and my observation of friends of mine who went into politics, and people I have met who have been in politics, is that charming as they can be in private, and charming as they can be round a dinner table or in any other circumstance, the moment a camera or a microphone is in front of them they have to, and it is not their fault, it is not through some sort of disease, they have to retreat to a kind of blandness, they can’t actually say what they think, they can’t even make a light joke without offending a quarter of the population. Does it frustrate you?
Prime Minister:
Yes, I think all politicians find it very frustrating, but the point is that you have to live with a certain discipline, otherwise what happens is that your remarks get either taken out of context or what happens is that you, you know maybe you want to communicate one thing, and politics is about communicating things to people, you want to communicate one thing but you lapse into humour or irony, and never try to do irony, I have tried it once or twice and it has never worked, in front of a camera or a microphone and what happens then is you give a completely different, you know if that is the only thing that is picked out. I mean part of the problem in politics today is that, and I remember Bill Clinton explaining this to me and saying you know you may - you, that is the political leader - may do 100 different things in a day but the 30 seconds that people see of you on the evening news is what you have done that day so far as they are concerned. So if you make a remark that is maybe a bit off-line and that is there then you might have launched a new education initiative, tackled a particularly knotty crime problem, you know done whatever you have done for peace-making or otherwise in the world, but actually that is the 30 seconds that they see and that is what you have done.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, I can see that. And also another part of that is the kind of damned if you do, damned if you don’t aspect of politics, because it is a divisive system, politics generally, from the moment you arrived at No 10 you are obviously aware that most of the population, the voting population, hadn’t voted for you, though it was a good majority, so you are always going to be hated, or disliked, or distrusted by a certain number of people. But also if you stick to your guns you are going to be called stubborn, if you cede to public opinion you can be called weak and just at the mercy of polls. Margaret Thatcher herself said that if she walked across the River Thames on the water people would say: "Huh, she can’t swim". In other words you have to get used to the fact that you are going to be disliked, and now you see that is another reason I could never be a politician, it is a huge weakness of mine is I want to be loved.
Prime Minister:
Most of us do.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, do you, and do you mind knowing that so many people don’t?
Prime Minister:
Yes of course I want to be liked, and yes I do mind, but I also think it just really does come with the job now and I have got over it over the years, just as well otherwise I couldn’t have stayed doing what I am doing. But it is also that you, I think the most difficult thing in fact, and this is a whole different study, is that there is this interaction between politics and the media today that is very difficult because the media is highly, highly competitive, it is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and I think what that does is it puts an enormous stress and strain on the way that the public debate politically happens. And what I think is really the point now is that the modern media works by impact effectively and the biggest impact will come from scandal or controversy or pictures that make a visible impact. But if you try to have a reasoned policy debate, unless it can be translated into one of those mediums then it is actually quite difficult, and this is not so much a criticism of the media because they operate within this culture today and that is just the way it is, but you know what it means is …
Stephen Fry:
But it means that you are then of course open to the criticism that everything is released by an initiative, a soundbite, impact politics; on the other hand if you didn’t do that then you would be seen to be presumably either way behind the times, or inexcusably dull, or indeed hiding from them.
Prime Minister:
Or worse in a sense if you are a politician, you would have something to communicate but never be able to communicate it because you would never express it in sufficiently newsworthy terms. So a lot of it is about how you manage, and this is where this whole business to do with spin and spin doctoring comes in, is that in the end you know any organisation that wants to get its message across in the modern world has to realise that it operates through the medium of the press and television as they are, and therefore if you are not acclimatised to the world in which they are working then it is really not much use for you.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, and not only in the press and television but of course the medium that we are using now, which is a mixed media, we are recording obviously but it is going into a strange place. It is arguable that whatever you may have done in your Premiership you will never ever be as influential as two Britons - Tim Berners-Lee and Jonathan Ive, Tim Berners-Lee who invented in the early ’90s the worldwide web, all the language and the protocols that still guide it to this day, and Jonathan Ive, the chief designer of Apple who gave us the Ipod, through which many people will be listening to this. In other words it is a totally different world here now inside, it is the bite-sized mob-sowed (phon) as it is called, the little thing that happens on your mobile, it is the flashing across of text messages and internet chat which you can do on your phone which is different from, I don’t expect you know about all this because you haven’t had time to immerse yourself.
Prime Minister:
No, I am going to have to at some stage, but it does make a huge difference to the way you conduct politics. And in fact the American political system is gearing up to this, or has geared up to it now in a big way, but I think you have got to conduct politics in a different way, you have got to find the medium through which you can have a detailed policy discussion with people, you have got to accept that not everyone is going to be interested in the same subjects and therefore you have got to tailor the manner of your debate to what those who are interested in this particular debate, you know the medium …
Stephen Fry:
This is really interesting. And in fact this is all about the fact that Britain on the one hand is part of a global world which is more global, if I can say such a naff thing, than it has ever been, but it is also more divided than it has ever been, it is more segmented, we are segmented as units in the marketplace and we are culturally segmented. And that, hand in hand with the growth in the internet, has been an extraordinary growth of a kind of sectarianism in this country that I never thought I would see again in terms of the difference between the liberal consensus, which has given us things that I heartily approve of and would thank you for, like gay civil partnerships and equality in that sphere, and a general liberalisation of much of the moral temperature of the country if you like, hand in hand in that there has been a rise in the impatience and intolerance of churches in particular, their fight to regard themselves as a separate part of society, you have the faith schools and their own views about stem cell research, about homosexuality, about divorce, about all kinds of other things. And so it is like fracturing, it is lots of little fracture lines, it is one earth but rather as global warming has done to the lakes, it has cracked it up.
Prime Minister:
Well I think one thing that is happening is that as a result of that you have got a different type of political engagement where you do have to engage with people through issues. I mean Make Poverty History was an interesting example, Stop Climate Chaos and the whole climate change debate, but these are organisations that are operating in a completely different way with particular types of audience. I think the political parties increasingly will regard themselves as what I call stakeholder political parties where you have a series of stakeholders in your project but they will be interested in different aspects of your programme.
And if you take a young person and their political interest today, there is no point in my view in the Labour Party or the Conservative Party, any political party, engaging those young people at the level of thinking that they are as interested for example in National Health Service reform, which people tend to get to somewhat late in life, as they would be for example in the environment or Africa, or you know career opportunities in new technology industries which is something that they will have a particular you know fascination for. And therefore this fragmentation I think is meaning that the world of politics has to operate with different mediums and different points in time. And the other thing I think that is happening is that you don’t necessarily have quite the same broad consensus as you used to have in society.
Stephen Fry:
But do you have a cultural one? There has been a lot of talk about Britishness, in politics there is the whole issue of the West Lothian question, as I believe it was called after Tam Dalyell, in other words the idea that devolution to Scotland has meant that essentially there is something rather unfair about the idea of a Scottish MP having a say in English affairs, and when they have their own parliament shouldn’t it be a complete devolution? Is a unitary United Kingdom still on the cards with this kind of breakdown into devolution and also - I am sorry it is two questions - does British mean anything any more, should we actually just say English, and Scottish, and Welsh?
Prime Minister:
I think the British set of values that people share does mean something, I think they are distinctively British. I personally think the United Kingdom is still a very meaningful concept for people. I mean I like to think of myself as British, even you know though people will obviously think of themselves as British and Scottish, or British and Irish. But I mean I always think you know from my own situation, my dad was born in England, my mother was born in Ireland and both were brought up in Scotland, and I was born in Scotland and lived all my life in England. Now I don’t know quite …
Stephen Fry:
And I am sure one’s loyalties, I feel myself Norfolk before I feel myself England, and England before I feel myself Britain and so on, that it is possible to have multiple identities.
Prime Minister:
I think if you were looking for a sort of more mature consensus about issues to do with liberty and freedom today, I mean I think there is a particular type of political philosophy, and this is where I am as it were, which is I would be very liberal on say gay rights, you know the equality agenda, ending discrimination against people for whatever reason, but probably less liberal than a previous Labour generation would have been on law and order issues, or antisocial behaviour, you know people who commit violent crime and so on. What is quite interesting is that in the ’60s you would have had a consensus which was a sort of gathering liberal consensus in both spheres, both in terms of personal lifestyle, you know the sexual revolution and all the rest of it, and in relation to you know traditional civil liberties arguments in the criminal justice system. I think what is interesting today is that it is what I sometimes call for shorthand a sort of pro-gay rights, tough on law and order position, which I think is something different from what you would have had a generation ago.
Stephen Fry:
I think it is, I think that is unquestionably true. And do you feel, as we wind up I think, that over ten years Britain has become a better place to live?
Prime Minister:
Well you will always find people who will say well actually I am worse off, and in any country of 60 million people over ten years that would be so. I think that overall, I think in terms of our feeling of ourselves as a country, and I think the winning of the Olympic bid really symbolised this in a way, we are more comfortable with the notion that we are a country that is more diverse, that is more plural and also more tolerant.
Stephen Fry:
Is that just, there is this big debate about multiculturalism versus integration and that suddenly people say well there has been a terrible mistake, we have had 30 - 40 years of believing in multiculturalism is the God before whom we must bow, and now we realise that that has divided Britain in a way that is completely unacceptable and we should talk more firmly about integration, we should be unashamed about making sure immigrants learn English and so on.
Prime Minister:
I think it is a bit of a false argument really because the truth is multiculturalism grew out of a desire to prevent discrimination, but multiculturalism was never about division or difference, it was always about diversity. And therefore I think that you need to balance your belief that people should have the right to live with their own separate religious faith or cultural identity, with the duty to integrate at the level of certain key values that people should share in common and that are part of being British. And I think if you look at most countries in the world, and you know America I think is a very good example of this, for all the faults that people sometimes talk about American society, I think it is a great thing that you have got people who will you know when the American National Anthem is played, or the American flag is there, it is very much less a nationalistic thing than something that is to do with the values that bind them together and a pride in their country.
And I think we have got something of the same spirit in Britain today and I think that is a good thing and it means that people are very comfortable, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, whatever their religious faith, also thinking that at a certain level the values of tolerance and respect for other people and you know the basic common articles of decency that make a society worthwhile, those are things that people share in common and they are in the end I think quite, you know in the way that Britain as a country has developed they are very specific and British values.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, I would endorse that. I think that is more or less true. I wonder if you ever get a sense when you meet, in the extraordinary position you have, so many world leaders, so many people from other countries. What is it that they want? What do they want to see in London, what do they regard as being quintessentially British? Is it still the old things like Buckingham Palace or do they actually want to go and see where the Beatles first crossed Abbey Road?
Prime Minister:
I think the great thing about the country today, and you can see this with why London is such an exciting place to be and so many people want to come here, is that yes they certainly want to see the tradition, and Buckingham Palace and the Changing of the Guard and all the rest of it, and Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London, these things are great traditional icons, but in fact what they also love about London today is the sense of dynamism, and modernity and you know the fact that there are so many interesting places to go and see, and the museums and the theatres.
Stephen Fry:
And you can eat there now, you can eat in London finally.
Prime Minister:
Well the fact is you have got from all parts of the world you have got people who have come and given something to this country as a result of their bringing, of importing their own influences and cultures, and I think that is a fantastic thing. And the thing for a country like Britain, as I always say, is to be really proud of our history but not living in it, so you are proud of your history but we are a country today that should compete on its merits, as I put it, in other words that we should never think that because we are Britain as it were we have got some God-given right to be anything in the world. On the other hand we can be immensely proud of the history of the country, of the values that we have developed over a period of time.
Stephen Fry:
I was going to say the greater instinct - sorry to interrupt you - but the greater instinct these days is not to be proud of the fact that we are from Britain but to be apologetic, history has become through a kind of, I hate using the phrase political correctness, but you know what I mean, it is the story of the subjugation of the poor and the masses, it is a story of the evil of empire, and history has become self-laceration and apology. And I am sure you have had pressure to apologise to this nation, that nation, for something that you were not personally responsible for, the government is not responsible for, I am not responsible for. I refuse to apologise for slavery, I wasn’t there, and I wouldn’t expect a German to apologise to me for the massacre of my ancestors in the Holocaust, and there were some, but I really don’t expect them to apologise to me, it wasn’t them. And it seems to me just psychologically bizarre that the world has become this …
Prime Minister:
Yes it is difficult, it is difficult when you are the Prime Minister because if you have something like slavery, and you know we are marking the 200th anniversary of the law abolishing the trade in slaves, the interesting thing is that you know if you don’t as it were express regret for what has happened people think it is somewhat callous, and if you start getting into apology territory they say well what on earth …
Stephen Fry:
Yes, what are you doing apologising, it becomes a …
Prime Minister:
It goes back to what you were saying about not being able to win …
Stephen Fry:
You cannot win. Now I know, and I can reveal a secret here unless it has changed, that you have got work to do and I know that these days red boxes contain laptops, don’t they?
Prime Minister:
Not mine.
Stephen Fry:
Doesn’t it? Oh I know some Ministers have a little laptop …
Prime Minister:
You are quite right …
Stephen Fry:
You don’t? Are you really not interested in using computers, you don’t?
Prime Minister:
It is something that when I leave I am going to have to devote a lot of time to.
Stephen Fry:
Do you keep a diary incidentally, I know that is a question you get …
Prime Minister:
No, I don’t.
Stephen Fry:
But I suppose there is a diary kept of every day and every day’s work, which is your working diary, and if you wished to remember, if you wished to write your memoirs you obviously would have access to that.
Prime Minister:
I know, but I often wish I had the discipline to keep one…
Stephen Fry:
And you are going to have to learn who Jade Goody is, well yes you know that because there has been a recent scandal about it, but you are going to have to find out all about this bizarre world that has erupted in the British cultural scene since you left, that of reality television and the peculiarity of the way people behave now. I think you will find it very interesting, I have always thought there would be a good drama about the Prime Minister is in many ways so in the world but not of the world. It is a bit like running rugby, football, but never being able to play a game of it, you know. I am not saying you don’t live, obviously you live, you eat, you laugh and have a life, but it is going to be fascinating thing for you to go back into the world. Who knows, presumably you have no plans as to what you will do, lecture and talk to people?
Prime Minister:
No, I mean you know the trouble is when you are doing the job you are so much in it, you know you don’t have time really to think ahead, but as the time approaches I will have to, so I will.
Stephen Fry:
Yes, reform Ugly Rumours.
Prime Minister:
I think that would be very bad news for music in general and popular music in particular.
Stephen Fry:
Well it has been a real pleasure talking to you Prime Minister, I am very, very pleased and I hope it means you haven’t lost out on lunch, it is lunchtime, and thank you very much for giving us a moment to share your thoughts.
Prime Minister:
Thank you.