5 May 2007
Everyone will benefit if the world sticks by its commitments to help Africa, Tony Blair told Bob Geldof in our exclusive podcast.
Read the transcript
Bob Geldof:
Prime Minister I am thrilled that you have finally caught up with the modern world and decided to do something called a podcast.
Prime Minister:
You are not about to ask me to explain the technology, because otherwise I would fail.
Bob Geldof:
… just explain that language is one of the worst words in the English language. So I have listened to some of them and I think they are a bit brown nosey, a lot of them.
Prime Minister:
Inaudible.
Bob Geldof:
And it is an artificial sort of conversation because we are in this very grand room and surrounded by a load of people. But some of them have turned out to be really interviews and things like that, so it is hard in 20 minutes to get a conversation going because normally in the pub it takes about 15 minutes and a couple of pints to establish a rapport even with your mates to find out what you are going to talk about, except that people associate myself certainly, and I think, and here is where I am brown nosey, a clear success of your administration which was things African. And whenever I am asked, especially at this sort of end of era sort of moment what I believe the successes of the Blair years were it is clear that it is for me personal inasmuch as that it is Africa, and what people don’t really consider is Ireland where I could never have imagined 15 years ago that my country, or my island, would be at a sort of level of peace that would have been incomprehensible, I wouldn’t have accepted that. So I think they define it for me, this period.
But we will talk about Africa I think uniquely, if you don’t mind, simply because so many people have joined in. We were talking downstairs before this that there was a window which just coincided with your Premiership which I think, you know I called them the politics of values, at the end of the Cold War, between then and now, we were able to say to Africans you know here is the bargain, if you introduce accountability and transparency we will help fund infrastructure and grow your economies given these values that we have. I think that is over. Do you think we missed something?
Prime Minister:
You think that people have moved on from the politics of values now?
Bob Geldof:
I don’t think people have, I think that the circumstances have, I think that it is defined by China. The Commission for Africa, we missed, that is 2 years ago, 3 years ago, we missed how important this growing phenomenon was.
Prime Minister:
Right, but I think, you see the key to this is the difference between, and in my view in a sense the false difference between the politics of self-interest and the politics of values. In other words countries would see the pursuit of particular objectives as something that they did because of their strategic interests and you know your concept of the politics of values really came about because people were saying well actually now there is a new dispensation and really what we have got to do is to implement a foreign policy based on values rather than simply one based on self-interest. Now I think that although it is true that there can be at least a short term clash between self-interest and values, I think the single most important thing, and I think this is very important in relation to Africa, is that long term I am sure our self-interest is best served by the values based policy. And I think that although you are absolutely right in saying that with China’s emergence as a dominant force in Africa because of its need to purchase commodities in order to fuel the necessary growth in development of the Chinese economy, although I think you can say at one level that that has superseded what was happening there maybe even you know 10 years back, nonetheless I think for China as this process continues it will realise that it has a real interest in stability, in the growth of greater democratic accountability, better governance, the exploitation of natural resources and assets not in a way that in the end leads to either conflict or economies that are distorted. Do you see what I mean?
Bob Geldof:
I do see what you mean, but if our values can be summed up in like democratic values which we believe to be universal values, but they may turn out to be parochial concerns because the Chinese have endlessly said we don’t accept those values. I was there in 1983 and had an argument, you know this was soon after Mao died and everyone still wore Mao suits, about this and they said we just don’t accept that notion of rights, we don’t accept it, we don’t accept this notion of democracy. And if they are the values we were in part … say look in exchange for these we will fund you, and it is a pathetically minimal amount, and the Chinese then come and say forget about those values, we’ll undercut their loans, we’ll undercut their deals, that means at the end of our values we then have to go along with their political gestalt (phon) if you like, but it doesn’t stop people emigrating towards us. I mean the Spaniards are considering building a tunnel through to Africa, that is how close Europe is to Africa as you know, and they will probably start in the next two years, certainly there will be mass migration towards us, there will still be political instability but we will have nothing to say, particularly Europe.
Prime Minister:
We didn’t have an argument though about why we should actually up our commitment, in other words, I mean again I totally accept what you are saying which is in a sense if a new player comes on to the continent and says look our first preoccupation is to make sure that we buy the commodities that we need, your political system is a matter for you but here is what we can offer you. I think because, one, that in the end is self-defeating for those countries because they won’t succeed if they don’t get proper systems of governance; and two, that in the end because it won’t succeed it is ultimately self-defeating for China as well.
Bob Geldof:
What do you call proper systems? The Chinese will say that south east Asia developed with high levels of corruption, we have got 15% of our economy is lost through corruption, your proper system of government is one that we reject, and if the Chinese say well let’s look at the people who are funding this, that is the Chinese, the south east Asians are booming, why don’t we go with that model?
Prime Minister:
I think you know from my conversations with the Chinese leadership I think that their attitude is more that at this stage of China’s economic development, I mean this is their argument, at this stage of China’s economic development a political system such as the one that we have in Europe is not sustainable in order to keep China together, in order to make sure that for example the western agrarian part of China can catch up with the eastern seaboard and so on. And I think those are all arguments one can debate but you kind of see the force of them. However that same leadership would say to me, but the direction will be ultimately towards a political development that is more open and more free.
Now I think in relation to Africa it is not that the Chinese go into Africa saying we don’t care what the governments are like, it is that their priority is so urgent in relation to commodities and resources that they simply, that is what their people need in order to grow their economy. Now my point is this, that in a way what that argues for is us being able to increase our commitment to Africa in order to make sure that whether the Chinese are going in there and supporting or buying commodities or whatever, there is still the support coming from us to help those countries in Africa develop their political systems and systems of governance in the right way, because in the end that is all that will save them. I mean if you take a country like Nigeria, if they don’t adopt the proper systems of governance, they won’t succeed in the end.
Bob Geldof:
I understand that, but if Africa is vulnerable to our predations if you like, if America, and they will, take 25% of their oil from Nigeria and Angola within the next 10 years, the Chinese are extracting whatever they can at whatever price to fuel their huge economy, the immediate price of that is huge political instability for example in Darfur where they almost refuse to intervene overtly certainly, I know there is stuff behind the scenes. But what is alarming for me is that the American response has been that to set up AfricCom (phon), I mean as you know like there were three military areas dealing with Africa in the past and in the last couple of months they have set up you know one military unit that just deals with Africa. And again my problem is, one, is that the correct response; the second thing is what has Europe got to say about this? We remain utterly silent and yet it is us who will be affected directly and immediately by this. Meanwhile we allow this new scramble for Africa, America and China over the coming years to play out whatever their ideological or security or economic interests are.
Prime Minister:
Well I think my response would be it makes the case in this G8 this year all the stronger for going back and making sure that we keep to the commitments we have got. If we are then making a big commitment ourselves to Africa, and not just in terms of aid but also you know for the killer diseases, for conflict resolution, for building up the African Peacekeeping Force, which Europe could do very easily and really help and support that, that to me is …
Bob Geldof:
But it is not doing it. I mean you know this endless struggle for the tiny, tiny amount.
Prime Minister:
Right, but isn’t that the reason why you have got to sustain the pressure in order to get them to do it?
Bob Geldof:
But we have had 10 years where you know one of the most powerful governments in the western world - yours - has been pushing this agenda, expending political capital and we are at this wonderful moment where the United States contribute zero, 0.17%, one-seventeenth of a cent.
Prime Minister:
Which is probably more than they did.
Bob Geldof:
It is three times more than they did, and fair play to him, but when you talk about expending more to ensure this in our own self-interest, and I agree with you, this expanding continent, and the Chinese, whatever the price, are doing it. What alarms me is that as a coherent entity Europe has got very little to say about Africa and seems to contribute nothing to the forward thinking and indeed seems reluctant to even, it seems to us psychologically as far away as possibly Africa is to the Chinese.
Prime Minister:
Well we would be smart to change, is my point.
Bob Geldof:
But you have had 10 years to change them.
Prime Minister:
Yes, but I mean I think in a sense for Europe, I mean OK this has been a priority for our government right from the very beginning, but you are right, the challenge is still there to convince the rest of Europe that they have got to …
Bob Geldof:
But they are very cynical, aren’t they, about it?
Prime Minister:
I think the difficulty with Africa is that in order to convince people that something needs to be done you have to point to the horrors, and there are real horrors.
Bob Geldof:
Yes, I agree.
Prime Minister:
And the problem is then you point to the horrors and everyone says after a time, well it is hopeless then, so people don’t see that actually in Tanzania, or Mozambique, or Angola for example, or Liberia, or Sierra Leone or many other countries there has been enormous progress. So people kind of think well is it worth it?But I think the other thing in Europe specifically that is changing that the Europeans haven’t yet really thought through the consequences of this is that Sudan, Somalia, difficulties in Chad as a result of that, think of the issues that are going to land, well they are here now actually on our doorstep in Europe if we don’t help those countries sort themselves out. And I think the other problem with the European perspective is that, and this is where I think the Europeans should coordinate strongly with the Americans, if you take the Sudan the truth is it is only ourselves and the Americans that have been really pushing hard the notion of getting tough action on the Sudanese government. It is only tough action, or threatening tough action, that has got any prospect of getting the Sudanese government to change tack.
Bob Geldof:
But we won’t get anywhere because the Chinese, the Russians will block it.
Prime Minister:
Well I think it is possible to get somewhere but it has been a long process. But I think we are getting to the point now where we will pass a new UN Security Council resolution on Sudan if the Sudanese government don’t do this. But I agree, it has been a big battle. So what do you do? You redouble your efforts and you try to bring home to people, as I say, this concept that our own self-interest ultimately is harmed if we don’t take in a sense pre-emptive action to stop Africa descending into chaos.
Bob Geldof:
Why do you think, this is a bit of a soft ball, but it is nonetheless interesting, why do you think this country ran with this issue specifically, you know at every level of society and pushed it? Do you agree that it pushed it through globally?
Prime Minister:
Yes absolutely, but I think without unduly flattering you, I think I am looking at one of the reasons.
Bob Geldof:
Well that is what I was trying to get you to say, … about time you got round to me.
Prime Minister:
Yes, but I mean there are times when people individually make a real difference and I think this was one of them.
Bob Geldof:
But I don’t mean that, I mean everyone joined in, Band Aid, Live Aid, Live 8, all that Make Poverty History.
Prime Minister:
Yes but I don’t think it could have been done without the …
Bob Geldof:
But politically did you really make them or did people really, I mean your contemporaries in office who are now all moving on, did they really take it seriously, will it get to them, did you have to squeeze and use political capital a lot?
Prime Minister:
Yes certainly to get the G8 deal at Gleneagles, yes.
Bob Geldof:
And will you now, I mean it is the last G8, there is probably mixed emotions about that, but will you have to spend, expend remaining political capital to get Gleneagles still on track at this G8?
Prime Minister:
Yes I think you will have to keep people up to the mark the whole time and to make the right arguments for them and also to keep that civic society spirit and commitment there. Because I think one of the reasons why we were able to make a big push from here was that we managed to link up with the broader civic movement who also made demands that were realisable and achievable, I mean they were the top end of what was achievable. But part of the problem you often get in politics is that a pressure group will come together and just place a series of demands on government that you kind of, in the end you know you just can’t meet them, they are too colossal for what politics will stand.
But actually this was at the very outer edge of what was possible, but it was possible, we got the commitment. And I think the interesting thing too is that here in this country, I think partly because people have a keen appreciation of our empire and colonial history, and also in a funny way in Britain people are quite ambivalent actually about the empire, I mean they accept that as a time gone by but they also take a certain amount of pride, I think justifiably, in there were aspects of the British empire that you know were systems put in place that were commendable. And so I think you know there has always been quite a strong link between this country and Africa. I remember when I was younger my father used to go and teach in Sierra Leone at the Freetown University, every year would go and spend some months there. And so I think that those roots also were there and were not there in quite the same way as some of the other colonial powers who just look back on their history of exchange with Africa without a great deal of pride.
Bob Geldof:
In the past there have been sort of massive movements, civic movements of people. In no way am I comparing it to the anti-slavery movement, but what is kind of different now is this thing that people go on about, the sort of celebrity thing. You have always used, I mean used is the word but I don’t mean that, I don’t mean exploited, but you have used that. What is that, what’s happened now that you have seen, I mean I get the question, I always say well it is a celebritisation of politics rather than the politicisation of celebrities you know.
Prime Minister:
Well I think the blunt truth is having well known people that people are engaged with and feel they know because they like their music or like their art in some way, they can have an influence on people provided it is done in the right way. I also think there is this which I always say to people when they complain about celebrity getting involved in these issues, I mean what would you prefer, that they didn’t? I mean they don’t have to.
Bob Geldof:
It’s a bit naff though isn’t it?
Prime Minister:
I don’t personally think so provided people do it in the right way and know about it. I mean you have been going to Africa for how long, 20 years?
Bob Geldof:
25 years.
Prime Minister:
25 years, so it is not as if you …
Bob Geldof:
But I think they accept that, I mean droning on ad nauseam you know, what they don’t accept is my music unfortunately, or my shorter friend …
Prime Minister:
But you know whatever there is about it, I mean that is the way the world is today.
Bob Geldof:
I read a really interesting thing, I can’t remember by who, I had to do something last week where I was sort of speculating about this thing, and in a world of mass individualism where there is the status of individualism, cars, commercial goods, clothes is available almost to anyone, the only way to achieve individualism is through celebrity, which I think is …
Prime Minister:
I think the other thing about you know celebrity and so on is that it is just there with us now because there is so much media, there is so much you know everybody has got their favourites.
Bob Geldof:
Are politicians celebrities now, are you a celebrity?
Prime Minister:
I think you kind of, the fact that you are so well known and people feel they know you because they have seen you so much, I mean I am under no illusions that when I go to a place and everyone is kind of pleased to see you, it may be nothing to do with that they agree with your politics at all, in fact they may totally disagree with them but you are kind of a well known person. And I think it is just the way the world is and you know people expect to know an awful lot more about people than they ever used to.
Bob Geldof:
But in a couple of months you will be a celebrity rather than the Prime Minister won’t you?
Prime Minister:
Or a former celebrity …
Bob Geldof:
It is interesting because obviously you aren’t, I mean I know you enough to know you are not the sort of person who can just do the celeb circuit, I mean you will make a wedge I hope, but beyond that you are quite, I have met a lot of people in your position and you are very comfortable with power which is just as well if you are leader. You know don’t you need a job where you can exercise that?
Prime Minister:
I think you need a life purpose. I always say to people you know some people could perfectly easily say well I am just going to sort of relax, I can’t, I mean you either are that type of person or you are not.
Bob Geldof:
Sure you’re a young man Tony, for God’s sake.
Prime Minister:
Well I am young enough I certainly hope to be able to do something, you know to have another objective, another purpose after I finish.
Bob Geldof:
I want to finish though by just like, it has been a short 20 minutes, but if this world that you are now going out into, as opposed to the cloistered world of politics, and I always feel that probably when you get to the top of the gig in democratic politics you are probably very frustrated by the ultimate impotence of democratic power. Has that frustrated you, did you feel that there was a certain impotence, this constant negotiation with everything?
Prime Minister:
Well there is a constant negotiation with everything. For example you may decide here that you are going to make this or that change in the National Health Service, which I was talking about earlier today. Right, you can decide it but you have then got to negotiate your way through all the obstacles that there are, or we can decide we want Gleneagles to be about Africa.
Bob Geldof:
Is that the odd frustration and becomes, you feel an impotence and then you are attacked for that?
Prime Minister:
You feel the limits, not impotence but you feel the limits of what you are able to do. But you have got to get used to that because otherwise you are being ludicrously idealistic about it. And I think within the limits for example of what we could do in relation to the G8, you know I kind of look back on that and think well we had a summit in which Africa dominated the summit and we got everyone signed up to an agreement. And I have sat through numerous G8s in which that didn’t happen. Now does that mean that everything that you wanted since then has been done? No, so you carry on negotiating and you carry on driving it.
But I think the important thing about politics is in a sense not to let your idealism be driven out by a cynicism that comes from the fact that there are limits to what you can do, on the contrary it is the idealist’s job to carry on pushing at those limits and that is why as I finish the interesting thing for me is that I am as idealistic as when I first started. Now I may have taken the wrong decisions or the right decisions, I mean leave that to another judgment, but I still believe in the power of politics to change people’s lives and I think the fact that you have to continually negotiate and compromise your way through politics does not mean either that you don’t achieve things or that it isn’t a worthwhile activity even to be agitating for the right thing being done.
Bob Geldof:
This world that you are going out into, it is wildly different to 10 years ago. No doubt we count on you, and that is a lot of people who were behind what was achieved on the African issue over the last 10 years, to really nail this G8 and the European Summit, I mean really nail them, whatever is left, whatever ounce of capital political is left this is the one we have to do or else Gleneagles will not be realised by 2010, that is the unfortunate fact. But having said that it is a world which is with regard to things African going to be dominated by America and China, with Europe almost watching on the sidelines. Will you stay engaged and do you fear this new world where Russia is taking the turn that is beginning to be viewed with some apprehension, do you go out into that world with a certain fear and will you be engaged in trying to you know shake that world?
Prime Minister:
Yes, I mean I want to stay engaged, certainly on Africa but on other things as well. And you know at the G8 this year I will spend whatever capital is left trying to get the right result and then be outside the next one with my placard.
Bob Geldof:
What songs do you know? They are usually crap songs … placard songs. Good luck.
Prime Minister:
OK, thanks Bob.
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