16 May 2007
Chat show host Patrick Kielty came to No10 to interview Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern about the Northern Ireland peace process.
Read the transcript
Patrick Kielty:
I am Patrick Kielty and today you find me in the Terracotta Room apparently of 10 Downing Street overlooking Horseguards Parade where I have the privilege and pleasure of sitting down to talk to Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Prime Minister Tony Blair about their historic peace deal in Ireland.
First things first, Prime Minister thanks for having me. I think we can say it is changed times. The last time anybody called Paddy from Northern Ireland was this close to a sitting Prime Minister in Downing Street I think John Major had the glaziers in for about a week afterwards, so thanks for that.
I suppose we are here to talk about how the north was won in essence and it is quite historic for me because I think it is unique in world politics that you have got two sitting Prime Ministers who have been in office for ten years, have been across a process for so long. You have seen everyone off, which I think is unique, they have come and gone, you know from John Hume right the way through to David Trimble. We now have a government up and running, the magic question: How in the name of God did you manage it? Where do we start?
Prime Minister:
I think we had an opportunity, which is the first thing, you have got to have an opportunity in these things and I think there was something to do, I think this is one of the under-estimated aspects of this, there was something to do with the way that Ireland had changed, the Republic of Ireland had changed, which was very important in terms of you know when I was growing up as a kid you know people in Northern Ireland were kind of, especially from certain parts of the community, would kind of look at the Republic of Ireland and they would say well we don’t want to, you know look at its economy and so on and so forth. And I think one thing that happened was as you approached the millennium there was a sense of real change going on in the Republic of Ireland, there was also frankly a new government and in a way a kind of new way of doing things, also coming in after 18 years of the previous government with us.
So I think the opportunity was there. I think obviously the fact though, as you rightly say, that myself and the Taoiseach were able both to form a close friendship but also to work at this for ten years that made a difference too so you were able just to keep going. And an important thing about a process like this, I don’t know what Bertie thinks about this but certainly what I have learnt is that you have got to keep it going the whole time, never let it stop, even if it is in difficulty never let it stop.
Patrick Kielty:
Has it sunk in for both of you what you have actually achieved, because I thought, like you guys, that there were many things I would do in my career, but sitting in Downing Street discussing a peace deal between Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness wasn’t one of them. Has it actually sunk in, the magnitude?
Taoiseach:
Well I think for us we sat together last week watching the business being formalised in a very peaceful, and calm and dignified way.
Patrick Kielty:
… Martin and Ian coming down the stairs and Westlife playing in the background, which of course must have been nice for you Taoiseach?
Taoiseach:
Definitely, one of their number ones. But it did roll back in our minds all the years, and as the Prime Minister said, just the consistent effort through the ups and downs, and a lot of downs, there is no doubt about that, they probably were swinging the balance of it. But every time we went through a stage and we had another intensive engagement, which was a few times a year, it almost seemed as if it was ongoing but every time we had a few big engagements we did make incremental progress, we didn’t get the big step but every time and the consistency we were going forward. Yes we had a few knocks back but I think overall we were always pushing forward.
Patrick Kielty:
Why chase it in the first place because if you look at any political handbook - stay out of Northern Ireland. Now that is probably Rule No 1 and you know I was born in 1971 so I know no different, most of your adult life you have actually seen this taking place. I think it is fair to say that whenever Bob Geldof and Bono, who are both Irish, decided to solve Africa instead of Ireland that puts in context how difficult it is, so why chase it?
Prime Minister:
I think that it was because there was a kind of historical opportunity with the changing world, and maybe I was sort of crazily optimistic about it but I just felt it could be, because I thought that the relationship between Britain and Ireland was going to be completely different and because I thought also to have a dispute and conflict of this nature running on through into the 21st century there was something so unbelievably pointless. But of course the other thing was there was leadership in both sides of the community and that was important, one shouldn’t under-estimate the impact of David Trimble and then Ian Paisley, of John Hume and Seamus Mallon, of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness of course.
Patrick Kielty:
Well if you name those people, compromise is a word that is very much banded about when you do a deal like this, but to me I honestly believe, and I am not sure what your opinion on this is, that it is not about compromise, most deals, and especially in Northern Ireland, are about making both sides believe they are getting what they want. Now is that fair on this deal because essentially for me it is keep the map blue and make everything else appear green.
Taoiseach:
Well I think Patrick there were horrendous difficulties of the past where an enormous amount of people were killed and injured and I think for the island of Ireland, not just Northern Ireland, the idea that we could go on decade after decade, as we did from before you were born, from the late ’60s, and just have that blight on top of us all, including the people of Northern Ireland, was just a disaster. So I think it wasn’t did we decide, could we have taken other priorities, from my position and I think from someone on the island of Ireland every day, it beholded us to make an effort to try and change the lives of people and we were lucky, we were lucky that there was a British Prime Minister in office that didn’t say you know I think this is a very important issue but I just happen to have 99 others. That was the changing point. And it is a compromise but it wasn’t a compromise out of nothing, the reality is why are the parties together today? They are together …
Patrick Kielty:
They both believe they are getting what they want.
Taoiseach:
No they are not because they have been able to move away from the fields that they were in, the difficulties of intransigence on one side and believing in armed conflict on another. Those issues have been resolved, the underlying issues have been resolved so therefore what divided them was not there, so it wasn’t a question of conquer, it wasn’t a question of victory or defeat, it was a question of being able to move into a new patch together and I think that is the essence of what has happened.
Patrick Kielty:
The next stage of this deal, I think one of the things which is important about this is when a process happens very quickly and there is a momentum then you appear to get credit for it. If this deal had been done, the ‘94 IRA ceasefire, the ‘98 Good Friday agreement and you guys were doing your lap of honour then, there would be I believe more credit for it than has actually taken place. And do you think because this has dragged out and it has been so start-stop that the public actually appreciate what has been achieved?
Prime Minister:
I think they kind of do now actually in a way, but I think the point about a process like this is that the agreement that you get at the beginning, in this case the Good Friday agreement, is only a framework, you then need to implement it and you need to be able to, you see you need the time because the division is so great and the distrust is so great, and in some cases the sectarianism …
Patrick Kielty:
Do you think it is about trust, is that what it is?
Prime Minister:
Yes it is, but it is about in this sense, when you were saying earlier have people got what they want, I think I would put that in a slightly different way, I would say that they are now able to pursue what they want, which is still different, I mean Unionists are still Unionists, Republicans are still Republicans, they are able to pursue what they want but within a framework that seems to them both equal and fair, and I think that is the important thing. Because you are not going to suddenly make Unionists of Republicans or Republicans of Unionists, on the contrary.
Patrick Kielty:
But at the same time you have Ian sitting down you know serving you tea and biscuits, I am not sure whether they were jaffa cakes, whether they were orange in the middle or not, but it all seemed very cosy with him and Martin last week. You know one of the things I want to ask is how difficult was it to deal with Ian Paisley compared to David Trimble because I always find the problem with free Presbyterians is that they actually have principles, whereas a Catholic will tell you whatever he wants, you know the French, the Italian, the Irish, you know whatever you want to hear we will tell you that in order to do the deal, whereas with Ian it is right or it is wrong, you know they are God-fearing people. So how difficult was it when he was injected into the equation? You are smiling Taoiseach!
Taoiseach:
Well I am but I don’t think we would have found David Trimble or Seamus Mallon or any of the people there easy, I mean I think we have had some of the most horrendous arguments and fights that I think I ever had in politics with some of these people, I don’t think anybody would … ever easy.
Patrick Kielty:
Which one?
Taoiseach:
Well all along the way, but it was all in the balance. I remember spending long nights where it was heated debate and people fighting over things they really believed in. But in fairness to Dr Paisley, in recent years obviously in earlier times he didn’t speak to me, he wouldn’t shake hands to me, he didn’t engage with me and that was his position. But as we moved on and you know as the Prime Minister I think brought around a realisation to him and to his party that we were really going to cement the obstacles as he saw them and that we were making progress, I think he opened up his mind that we could find a real solution. And I would have to say, having said many hard things about him in my political life, and not long ago when I was back at school what I used to think about him, but he has been a rock in the last few years, he has moved forward in a way that has allowed us to bring the underlying principles of the Good Friday Agreement into reality. He is not the only one but he has played his part.
Patrick Kielty:
OK. John Major’s government was the first government, British government, to say that you couldn’t defeat the IRA as such. When you can’t win a war is that enough reason to sit down and talk?
Prime Minister:
No, I don’t think in itself it is but I think what is sufficient reason is if you can find some common ground of principle. And I think this thing to do with principle and compromise is again a very interesting reflection on this process.
Patrick Kielty:
How much did you have to compromise yourselves to do this deal?
Prime Minister:
I think quite a lot at various points, and I would say at the very beginning this was why it was very difficult right at the very beginning, is that people had to compromise because you see the problem is when the divisions go very deep and when the distrust is very great, what happens is that people get into a situation where they won’t commit, or they will commit 50% but they are not going to commit the next 50% until they see the other side start committing. And therefore until you get the space within which that culture of minimum compromise gives way to OK let’s start anew, start afresh, you know it is very hard.
Patrick Kielty:
Well that is not quite what I am getting at. To me it is the case that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter and as someone who lost his father in Northern Ireland you know Iraq is just IRA with a ‘q’ on the end. 3,000 people died in Northern Ireland, 3,000 died on September 11, so whenever my father, you know the killers were being released as part of the Good Friday agreement I felt that was a necessary evil, I felt that peace in my country was worth that and so I was happy to see the process move forward. But for a lot of people it wasn’t, and what do you think makes those families different from say a family who had someone killed in the tube bombings in London?
Prime Minister:
But you see this is where I think that you do have to lead people out of this in the end. Look I still talk to people now, and let’s be under no doubt at all you will find people in Northern Ireland and in the Republic who will say everybody has sold out, you know there is no principle at the heart of this. You will still, there were politicians in the recent elections in Northern Ireland running on that basis from both sides actually. But this is where in the end you have to give a lead to people and simply say look there is a basis upon which people can live in peace together here. But I think the interesting thing about this, and it is one of the things that I have come to learn about it, is that principle is absolutely right and it is fundamental to achieving peace, but those who kind of hoard it, you know the concept of principle without opening up to what is necessary to live together and make progress.
Patrick Kielty:
You are preaching to the converted here.
Prime Minister:
Yes, but I mean I think it is an interesting, because when you look at different conflicts around the world, not least I think the Palestinian issue, you know there are lessons to be learned from conflict resolution that we have learnt in Northern Ireland.
Taoiseach:
But I think we always took into account those people who had lost loved ones and what we were trying to do, whatever side that they were from, or if they were from no side, just innocent members of the community, that we had to be sensitive to them because in many cases because of the troubles in Northern Ireland and so many incidents happening there was not full investigation, there was too much pressure on the authorities and the ordinary public had that fierce sense of sadness that continued on far longer maybe after something in another country and we always tried our best to carry them with us and explain our position, but that was always I think one of the difficult things, it was always a difficult thing to do.
Patrick Kielty:
If you look back to 1973 and there have been a lot of innocent lives lost in Northern Ireland since then, Sunningdale, the deal that was on the table, people would say that that deal was more pro-Unionist than this deal. Why do you think that Ian said no and walked away from that deal and why is he doing the deal now?
Prime Minister:
Well I think the basic reason for him is and always has been that when it wasn’t clear that everyone was committed to the democratic process then there was always a reason to say no.
Patrick Kielty:
It is back to good Free Presbyterian principles, right and wrong.
Prime Minister:
Yes and I think to be fair, I think he has had his integrity through this. I think then the question for him, which was a question obviously of leadership for him but for the Unionist community, and I think the length of the time of the process in a way helped this, was well OK if they are prepared to commit to the democratic process, are we prepared to share power?
Patrick Kielty:
How much does vanity as opposed to legacy come into it?
Prime Minister:
You are not seriously suggesting politicians are vain in any way Patrick, are you?
Patrick Kielty:
I wouldn’t do it, as someone who works in show business talking to two politicians nothing is further from my mind. I am thinking though when a prize is at stake the first thing I would do if I was walking into negotiate would be you could be the man, you could be the man to change this. And there is a certain pressure of not necessarily vanity but legacy which maybe means that compromise comes a little bit quicker?
Taoiseach:
Well I don’t think we could ever be accused of that since it took us ten full years and as you said at the start yourself, Prime Ministers don’t normally have that length of time. So for us it was could we make Northern Ireland better, could we make the island of Ireland better, could we make relationships between Britain and Ireland better, and I think along the way as I said every step of it we tried to make a little bit of progress. I don’t think we ever stopped and said well you know because we have made this bit of progress everybody applauding us on the street, because that was never the case because I think people were always saying well why didn’t you get more done? So you know for us it was just where we see peace, a satisfaction for us that there were less people being killed, that there were less activities going on, that we were moving away from a dreadful past. They were the satisfaction points, not anything else.
Patrick Kielty:
Prime Minister you are leaving, Taoiseach you are staying. Now are you wise in the head?
Prime Minister:
You are looking at him and not me
Patrick Kielty:
I am looking at him, yes this is a radio broadcast, the listeners can take from it what they want. Because ultimately when you secure a prize this great is it not a case of taking the curtain call and walking away, because sometimes when you do the right thing it comes back to bite you in the backside and for you particularly I think Scotland devolution, that was something that was a Labour policy which has now kind of come back to haunt you in a way politically from a Labour point of view; from a Fienna Fall point of view you have now created peace and Sinn Fein are now the new gentlemen of Irish politics, do you worry about their influence in the new Ireland …?
Taoiseach:
No, we in Fianna Fall a long time back as a political party recognised that by bringing Sinn Fein in from the cold and trying to end the armed campaign and bringing peace to Northern Ireland, that that was ultimately going to help Sinn Fein, that was a price we had to pay. And for myself you know I will stay at this, I have fixed the time that I will stay around and I will stay at it as long as that. But for us, I think for Tony Blair and for Bertie Ahern for ten years all we wanted to see, that something that had gone on literally for hundreds of years, that we at least could bring it to this point and hope that it would never go back, we can never be certain but at least we tried to create the circumstances that Northern Ireland for the future will go on to be a normal society with normal politics.
Patrick Kielty:
OK, very quickly because we have to wrap up. This deal I think is your baby, Taoiseach, are you looking forward to bringing the baby up with Gordon Brown?
Taoiseach:
We have to continue to make this happen and it will not, I will say this Patrick, whoever is carrying this forward the issue will be that it will have to be tended to carefully, it will not just be allowed to float out there and just happen. It didn’t happen by accident and it won’t be brought to conclusion, total conclusion, without it being looked after.
Patrick Kielty:
Prime Minister, any advice for the Taoiseach for working with the new Prime Minister?
Prime Minister:
No. I am sure he will do it fine, he will do it great, as he has done with me. But he is right in saying it has got to be managed the entire time. And you know the curious thing about these situations is, and I found this when we negotiated the Good Friday agreement when we were locked in that ghastly castle building for days and days, and actually I kind of didn’t, after a time the whole thing was sort of surreal in the way the negotiation was happening and I was hardly aware at points that it was this great historic event because it was just meeting, after meeting, after meeting. And actually sometimes the best thing to do, you know when you are very busy like us and you are focused on something like this is you worry in a curious way less about the great sort of “history” as you do …
Patrick Kielty:
Getting the minutiae right?
Prime Minister:
Yes and just getting on with it.
Patrick Kielty:
OK well look I think that is pretty much time, today is not a day for speak bites but I can see a man behind me and I can almost feel a hand of security on my shoulder. So thank you Taoiseach and thank you Prime Minister.
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