Briefing from the Prime Minister’s Spokesman on: Fire Dispute.
Fire Dispute
Asked why the decision to use the red training fire engines from the National Fire Training College had not been taken earlier, the Prime Minister’s Official Spokesman (PMOS) said that it was important to keep things in perspective. There were only around fifteen red engines, compared with 830 Green Goddesses, so we were talking about an increase at the margins. We also had a finite number of military personnel as 19,000 soldiers had been trained since August. To train these troops up on the red engines would have meant moving them from their training on the Green Goddesses, which would have gone against the operational advice from the military. The fifteen red training engines had been deployed around the country as part of our contingency planning. As he had said yesterday, they could not be used during the current forty eight-hour strike. However, should we have an eight-day strike, people could assume that all the preparations would have been completed in time for them to be used at some stage during it. It went without saying that these were complex, operational decisions which had to be taken. Obviously we had to be mindful of the views of the military. It had been their opinion that they were better off staying with the Green Goddesses during the current strike. It was also important to understand that there wasn’t a substitute fleet of red fire engines to which the military could switch during strike periods. The red engines were being used in the period up to a strike and would be used again immediately in the aftermath. They were complex pieces of equipment. It wasn’t a matter of climbing into the cab and simply driving off.
Questioned again about the number of training vehicles which would be available to the military, the PMOS said that there were around fifteen red tenders which had been based at the National Fire Training College. These had now been deployed around the country, but were not ready for use in the current strike. We expected training and all the preparations to be completed shortly so that they could play a role during a subsequent longer strike should it happen. Separate to that, there was a reserve fleet of fire engines. Numbers varied in terms of those which were operational. These were fire tenders which substituted in and out of the fleet in fire stations around the country when there were problems relating to equipment or mechanical breakdowns etc. A large number were not able to be used inasmuch as they had been taken out of service because there was something wrong with them. As we had said, however, we would look at what was available. No options were ruled out.
Asked if he was implying that training on any red tenders would not be completed by the end of next week when the next strike was due to take place, the PMOS said he was simply making the point that training wasn’t a straightforward exercise. How long it would take and to what level of sophistication troops would have to be trained was a judgement which would have to be taken. Questioned about crossing picket lines to use red tenders, the PMOS repeated there was no substitute red fire tender service which equalled the regular Fire Brigade service. The vast majority of red tenders were in service. There was only a limited number of training vehicles. People had to be realistic about the logistical and operational issues. That said, as John Prescott and other ministers had made clear, an eight-day strike moved us into new territory. There was no political bar to taking any course of action which the Government deemed necessary to protect public safety. We had to be realistic about the nature of any contingency planning that the Government could provide. Judgements had to be made along the way. We had acknowledged from the outset that any service would, by definition, be second rate to the usual service provided by the Fire Brigade. The PMOS added that the Prime Minister had been talking to John Prescott and other Ministers about this issue over the last twenty-four hours. During the course of his conversations, he had pointed to the extraordinary professionalism of the military who, in the circumstances and given the equipment they had, had done an extraordinarily good job.
Asked if we would do all we could to provide extra tenders so as to allow as many military staff as possible to use them and whether that would mean the army having to cross picket lines, the PMOS said that we would take whatever judgements we needed to take, mindful of the operational and logistical issues which had to be addressed in consultation with the military, and mindful of public safety. If the FBU decided to hold an eight-day strike, we would have to review all the issues again. We were not taking anything off the table or closing any avenues. However, the way to avoid getting into such a situation was for the strike action to be called off. That would be the sensible thing to do. We were coming to the end of a two-day strike. During that period, public safety had been threatened and there had been a number of knock-on effects, including a reduced service on the Tube. That was totally unacceptable. The way for all this to end was for the FBU to call off its industrial action.
Questioned about the length of time it took to train people on red fire engines, the PMOS said that if a judgement was taken to deploy them, we thought it unlikely that all those who would be able to use them would be able to use all the equipment on them. Self evidently, it would take a long time to train anyone to use a fire tender and all its specialist equipment in its entirety.
Asked if the Government was any clearer about the possibility of imposing an injunction under the 1992 legislation, the PMOS said that he had nothing further to add to what he had said about this matter yesterday. If the dispute escalated from a two-day strike to a series of eight-day strikes, issues that had been looked at and taken off the table would have to be examined again, although of course that was not to say that the answers would necessarily be different. He acknowledged that these were all perfectly legitimate questions. However, we were now coming towards the end of the current strike. There was one way for the whole situation to be avoided and for common sense to prevail - that was for the FBU to call of the next strike and to change course. Andy Gilchrist had said in the last few days that he had his own ideas and plans for modernisation. That was a step forward as it was something we hadn’t heard before. In those circumstances, it would be sensible for him to explore with the employers what that might mean. In the meantime, the Government would continue to make contingency arrangements. Asked for a reaction John Monks’ comments today, the PMOS repeated that the Government would take whatever action it needed to take to protect public safety.
Asked what we expected to happen over the weekend in terms of meetings and the like, the PMOS said that the ball was in the FBU’s court given it was up to them to decide what to do once the current strike ended. The employers stood ready to negotiate with them. The Bain Review had set out a pathway for more pay linked to modernisation. Andy Gilchrist, himself, had said that he had his own plans for modernisation. We believed it would be sensible if they engaged in a proper discussion process. Asked if he was making a direct appeal to the FBU to call off any further strikes, the PMOS said he was simply repeating what the Deputy Prime Minister had said yesterday. This kind of situation was usually resolved, in the end, through a negotiated settlement. It was surely better to get there sooner rather than later without all the consequential effects which a dispute like this had on public safety.
Asked on whose advice we had been acting in the run up to, and during, the strike period, the PMOS said that we had been guided, in part, by the views of the military who had made it clear that we were better served by using the Green Goddesses. Put to him that if there were 100 reserve and fifteen training vehicles in operation and thousands of retained fire-fighters who were not on strike then surely we could operate a better service than the Green Goddesses, the PMOS acknowledged that there were a number of reserve vehicles and fifteen training vehicles at the Fire Training College. However, using them would simply be a question of augmenting at the margins. At the core of the substitute operation were the 830 Green Goddesses. He repeated that there was no ’shadow red engine service’. Asked if he was saying that there would be no purpose to the military crossing picket lines to retrieve the red engines during next week’s planned eight-day strike because they would not be able to use them in any event, the PMOS said he was not saying that the Government was closing off any avenue. Nor was he implying that we were retreating from anything we had said over the last twenty-four hours. He was simply making the point that, given people were constantly raising the issue of red engines, there were logistical issues which had to be addressed and considered
Asked about the situation on the Tube today and the prospect of industrial action if LU decided to discipline the drivers who had walked out on the grounds of safety given what the management had said, the PMOS said that the situation today was better than yesterday inasmuch as a skeleton service was now running on some of the lines which had been completely closed. However, it was still not good enough that the Circle Line was not running and that large parts of the Piccadilly Line were out of action. As we had said yesterday, there was absolutely no reason for that to happen, as the Health and Safety Executive guidance made clear. If an eight-day strike was held, it was the Government’s firm belief that management and unions would have to look at these issues to ensure that Londoners were not inconvenienced again in the way they were being at the moment.
Asked if he would agree with John Monks’ suggestion that some LU staff may have walked out in solidarity with the FBU rather than on the grounds of safety, the PMOS said that in the spirit of charitableness, he would hope that anyone taking action on the Tube was doing so because they had genuine safety concerns. If so, they should raise them with the management who would be able to address them and reassure them. On the other hand, if a number of staff had indeed walked out in solidarity with the FBU, then that was another thing completely and, as he had said yesterday, it would be up to management to take the appropriate measures - and they would obviously have our full support in doing so. Clearly management and staff would have to think very carefully about these matters if we were heading towards an eight-day strike by the FBU. We could not have a situation where large parts of the London transport infrastructure were paralysed when the Health and Safety Executive had advised that there was no cause for that to happen.
Asked if the Ministerial COBRA had met today, the PMOS confirmed it had. Both Nick Raynsford and the Deputy Prime Minister had attended, in addition to other ministers. Questioned as to whether the Attorney General had been present, the PMOS said no.
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