Your questions to the head of ID card scheme
5 March 2007
James Hall, chief of the Identity and Passport Service, took part in a webchat with us today. Many thanks for all your questions, he answered as many as he could in the time he had available. You'll find the Q&A transcript below.
James Hall webchat transcript
James says:
Good afternoon, this is James Hall, Chief Executive of the Identity and Passport Service. This is the second webchat I have done on the subject of ID Cards. The first was last November, and a lot has happened since then. Most important of course, we have laid out our plans for the implementation of the National Identity Scheme in the Strategic Action Plan which we published in December. I urge you to read it.
In addition we have restarted some extensive consultations with the IT industry and started to recruit the team we need to deliver the Scheme. There is real momentum growing now to meet our commitment to deliver the first ID cards to UK citizens in late 2009.
You have sent in hundreds of questions. I shall try to answer as many as I can.
T Robbins: How easy will it be for someone to have their details taken off the National Identity Register if they decide that they cannot trust the security systems in place?
James replies: Each registration lasts for a period of ten years, before it has to be renewed. Once you have registered, the information cannot be removed but you can correct any inaccuracies and ensure that the information reflects changes of circumstance. There is of course no need for you to renew your registration at the end of the period, though you would not be able to get another passport or immigration document without registering.
Andrew Watson: A YouGov survey published on 4th December 2006 shows that 12% of Britons would refuse to get an ID card, even if it meant paying a fine or serving a prison sentence. That corresponds to about 5 million adults across the whole of the UK. In the light of this deeply-entrenched opposition, how confident are you of being able to force ID cards on the British population against their will?
James replies:
The latest British Social Attitudes Survey showed that 70% of the population think that a compulsory identity card scheme would be a price worth paying to help tackle threats like terrorism. But that is not what we are proposing right now.
The scheme will start as a voluntary scheme and I believe that people will enrol for cards because it will make day to day life easier in all sorts of ways - opening a bank account, for example. Any decision on compulsion for Britsh citizens is many years away and would depend in practice, on popular support, and a new Act of Parliament. My own view is that ID Cards will have to prove themselves by their utility, rather than people being forced to have them.
Roy Molson: If the system is merely voluntary, how will it help in the fight against crime and benefit fraud? Surely those who do not want to be identified will avoid obtaining an ID card.
James replies: You are right of course that the value of the scheme grows with take up and that a scheme only adopted by a small percentage of the population would have limited value. That is why we are focusing increasing efforts on ensuring that in the long term the identity infrastrucuture we are creating is embedded in a wide range of public and private sector business processes. The more ubiquitous the scheme, the more value to the individual and the better weapon in the fight against crime and fraud.
mike thompson: Let us just get on the the introduction of the card stop dithering we can and should do it in the world we live in now get on with it compulsary for all to carry with you at all times. Do it this year not in ten years time Come on your well paid to make this happen . save us all the money of talking about it if you have nothing to hide why not carry one I will.
James replies: We are moving as fast as we can. Procurement will start shortly and as I said in the introduction we are building the team which will deliver. Of course, during the Second World War, the government rolled out a scheme in a matter of weeks. But that did involve compulsion, and it did not involve any technology. It was also the only way you could get a ration card, so the incentive to work with the scheme was pretty strong!!
William van Zwanenberg: As a citizen, what ability will I have to see all the information held about me via my card and the NIR?
James replies: Under the Data Protection Act you both have a right to data subject access and to correct any inaccuracies. We hope to provide an easy online mechanism to check your own entry, but we are still assessing whether we can make this secure.
Mr Andrew Michael Edwards: What will happen to people who refuse to carry an i.d card and/or refuse to have their fingerprints taken etc?
James replies: There is no compulsion to carry an ID Card, even if you have one. But we think most people will find it more convenient to have it with them as they do their credit card and mobile phone. And there is no need to register and have their fingerprints taken, but you will forgo the ability to have a passport. From 2009, the intention is that all EU member states will include fingerprint biometrics on their passports, and this will become the international norm.
stuart downie: As an ex police officer I know that unless an officer can stop and demand production of documents and then be able to detain that person if the documents are not produced there and then the whole exercise will be pointless. My question is this: Will the police and other state officials have the power to stop people and demand their ID card and then detain them if it is not procuced? If it is to be like the production of driving documents it will fail in it's objective.
James replies: Parliament has not voted to give the police the powers you suggest, so it will not be possible for the police to require an ID card. Of course, the existing powers of the police to detain people on suspicion of a crime remain unaltered.
Nick Morris: I have seen stories that some people will have "truncated" records due to there "fame" does this indicate that the government is not confident that the database is secure?
James replies: There are no specific arrangments planned for dealing with 'celebrities' . However, you may be interested to know that we will be able to support people who use more than one name - such as a stage name - if they so wish. We will do this through an 'also known as' facility.
Rob: You didn't answer the question about what happens to people who refuse to be fingerprinted.
I refuse to be fingerprinted. What will happen to me?
James replies: Rob, you will not get a passport or an ID Card. That's it.
David Greatorex: Why when we already have two partial systems of id, passports and driving licences do we need a third. Surely it would be much more cost effective and quicker to extend one of these existing data bases to cover everybody than starting all over again. What is a passport for? I thought it was for international id!
James replies:
Well, actually there will not really be three. The ID Card arrangements will be largely integrated with those for passports (except to the extent, for example, that children get passports but are not eligible for ID Cards). So really there are only two and they are already linked. For example, your passport photograph can now be used on your driving licence.
As to why you need a passport, within the EU you will be able to travel on your ID Card and will not need a passport. But travel beyond that will require a passport unless and until other countries suggest they are willing to accept ID Cards in the place of passports.
Michael Dutton: How do we know it will not become law to carry your ID card around at all times, so that you will become an "instant criminal" when you leave your house one day and forget your id card?
James replies: The current Government has made their position very clear. If any future government wished to change that position they would need primary legislation through both Houses of Parliament. But realistically, the scheme will be successful if individuals believe it is useful to them to have an ID card in their wallet beside their credit cards; rather than because it is a state requirement. This is the overwhelming experience of other countries which have ID Card schemes.
Ewen Fraser: I am the only wage earner in my house, I can hardly afford road tax never mind the cost of ID cards for 5 people.
James replies:
Ewen, this is a very important issue. Three points: firstly we are doing everything we can to keep the costs as low as possible; secondly, we will try and make the incremental cost small for those who are obtaining passports; and thirdly, there is of course no compulsion to have a card.
And by the way, road tax is an annual charge whereas, each passport and/or ID Card will last you for ten years.
James Brundle: There is a lot of debate about who will have access to your personal details and much reassurance from the Government, but I see the main privacy issue being the so called 'Audit Trail' - a step by step list of each time the card is used - exactly when & where. The main privacy question is this: who exactly will have access to THIS AUDIT TRAIL, which effectively consists of personal tracking data?
James replies:
James, this is a good question which I know is a concern of the Information Commissioner. I sort of feel 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' with this. The audit trail is an important protection so that citizens can see who has accessed their record and when. But on the other hand, I understand there is also a concern that it could be used to infer something about a pattern of activities. However, the Identity Cards Act forbids the provision of the audit log to private sector organisations and it could only be seen by the police or security services in the case of serious crimes.
I should also note that most uses of the card will probably not involve accessing the National Identity Register and would therefore not create an audit trail transaction.
Henrietta W: What separation will there be as regards IND and IPS information, and if they are to be using the same system, will IND staff therefore have access to IPS data, or will these be kept separate?
James replies: Henrietta this is an acute question. This is not an open access system - there will be no unfettered access or browsing of the system. It will be to confirm individual's identities. However, some IND staff - for example, at border control - may need to verify identity information on both UK citizens and foreign nationals and of course the NIR will hold identity information on all those legally entitled to live and work in the UK, UK citizens or not.
Michael Bechley: Whilst I support the idea of ID cards, could we not have a central government reference number for all sources - say, the NI number. This could be discreetly printed on one's ID card, be used for pension payments, tax on-line etc. It is used on many of these already and would make things much simpler, instead of having a plethora of numbers to remember,
James replies:
Michael, I think this is where we might end up in the long term, but as a common identity enabler not as a central repository of personal information. However, it will take many years because many, large, complex legacy systems across government will have to change to use this common identifier and this cannot happen quickly.
But there are things happening in the short term. For example, a number of departments are working together right now to see how best to implement a common mechanism for sharing relevant birth, death and change of circumstance information across government. This is building on David Varney's report on Transformational Government which was also published in December.
David Reynolds: I understand the "lifetime" of the card being purchased is 10 years, however I also understand the actual technology only comes with a 2 year guarentee, how much will it cost me to replace the card if it breaks?
James replies: David, I was asked about this by the Public Accounts Committee last week. We are confident that the chip will last ten years in an ePassport and the decision to go for a two year warranty period was purely economic. We felt that the cost of an 'extended warranty' (which would have to borne by the passport fee) was not good value for money given the durability testing we had done. You will have had the same issue yourself, I'm sure, when purchasing a computer. But if the warranty costs start to become more realistic, this is certainly something we shall revisit.
nick Straughan: In your last webchat you pointed to the implementation of e-passports as an example of a successful government IT scheme. The new passports have since been cracked in a matter of hours, and the chips have a shelf life of just two years in a ten-year passport. How can we trust that the implementation of the ID card scheme and the associated national database will be any more successful, even if we were to leave aside the very real objections to the scheme on civil liberties grounds?
James replies:
The passports were not cracked. All that was shown was that someone who already had access to all the details in the passport could read those same details on the chip. The chip is designed so it can be read by border control around the world and we have our own public readers in passport offices.
What was demonstrated would not have been possible if the people concerned had not already had possession of the passport details and been able to read it. And there is a world of diference between reading the passport and changing the encrypted information on it; that is not what has been done.
Ben Aston: One thing is certain: identity cards will be forged. This will prevent the ID card scheme from having any preventative effect on the most serious crimes (because those with the intention to cause serious harm will undoutedly have the resources to procure forgeries). The only remaining benefit of having a "handy ID" is nugatory because we already have such ID in the form of Birth Certificates, Driving licences etc. The multiple downsides of the system such as increased potential for serious abuse, impingements on civil liberties etc must only lead to the conclusion that ID cards are not merely unnecessary, but undesirable. How do you respond to this?
James replies:
Ben, simply put I disagree. Of course, those wishing to invent identities, or assume those of other people, will try and target ID Cards, as they do passports today. But that does not mean we should lie down and admit defeat. It means we have to raise our game as we are doing today and will continue to do so through ever better background checks, unique biometric identifiers and harder to forge documents. The unique aspect of the biometric identifier will be a very important step in preventing criminals obtaining multiple documents under different identities.
DVLA is also looking at how to reduce the forgery and fraudulent use of driving licences.
john payne: how would identity cards have made London safer on July 7 last year?
James replies: John, no-one could assert that ID Cards or any other single measure could have prevented that terrible act. But there is no doubt that multiple identities are a key part of the terrorists' armoury and ID Cards will make that a whole lot harder. Al-Qaeda's own training manual requires its operatives to acquire false identities to disguise their activities.
Mark Partridge: The Prime Minister's response to the petition against the intoduction of ID cards contains a paragraph which indicates his wish to safeguard British citizens by labelling us all as criminals. He said:
I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.
In other words, he suggests that many unsolved crimes may be resolved through the practice of taking the fingerprints of every adult in the land.
These fingerprints can also be made available to authorities in other countries.
Isn't Tony Blair really suggesting that if a crime has been committed then everyone is a suspect?
James replies: One of the purposes of the Identity Cards Act was to assist in the prevention and detection of crime. No-one has the ability to trawl the database but the Act made provision for the police, once they have exhausted their own sources, to seek a match of fingerprints from crime scenes against the National Identity Register. It is surely hard to argue against steps which will help in the resolution of otherwise unsolved crimes, and bringing criminals to justice.
James says: I am out of time now. Thank you for all your questions and I'm sorry that I am a slow typist. If you want to see all of the questions that will be available shortly. And I hope that I might be allowed back to do another of these in due course.
Moderator says:
Thanks for all the questions. You can read more on ID Cards in our Big Issues section.
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